a penguin of very little brain ([info]stephiepenguin) wrote,
@ 2009-01-07 20:25:00
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Entry tags:china, foodie, isms, on being chinese

the inauthenticy of experience (and the food of the diaspora)
Restructure, in White American culture is General Tso's Chicken and Chop Suey, discusses Jennifer 8.Lee's summary of the myths that non-Chinese Americans have about Chinese food. I wrote this blog post prior to having seen the footage, which actually contains a lot of stuff I already knew (the creation of chop suey, the hostilities, etc) but which might be new to people who don't know a lot about the history of food in the Chinese Diaspora. Other people who have also discussed this today are sanguinity here, Johanna at Vegans of Colour here, Dr S here and restructure reposts at racialicious here (linked so you can read the comments).

The ingress of Chinese people through significant immigration (THE DIASPORA) into another country has often been followed by hostilities and aggression. The evolution of Chinese food over the years has been a sort of extension of this, at first remaining strict but then gradually altering to the foreign environments.The development of regionally acclimatised cuisines was at first a response to these hostilities, an attempt to make people feel more at ease with Chinese food and therefore more at ease with Chinese people. As Lee mentions, chop suey, a quintessential dish in Chinese restaurants across the USA, was created for the purposes of softening up the Caucasians, as it were, to be more amenable to Chinese people.

Restructure notes that Caucasian-Americans think that eating Chinese food is evidence of being all worldy and so on. These attitudes extend to Australia, so don't get complacent! "Multicultural cuisine" is seen as evidence of/a benefit of multiculturalism in Australia, and so are "cultural events," and complaints have been made that often these multicultural activities are being restricted to private events/within the home (ref). Those selfish not-white people! etc. So everybody want to go watch the lions dance in the new year so they can show off how accepting they are, and to eat lots of Thai food, but at the same time consider a mosque to be impinging on residents, demonstrating the superficial understanding and acceptance of not-white going on.

Dr S briefly suggests that some people might argue that we should try to only eat representative or "authentic" food, but such an argument is inherantly problematic. The food upon which I was brought up is by this definition inauthentic, being a centuries old fusion of Chinese, Indian and Malay cooking, called Nonya. Yet I would not suggest that the Chinese-Malaysian style is any more or less valid than Sicilian, and I am certainly not about to stop eating it due to its inauthenticity.

Extending on the idea of inauthenticity, does that make something like a vegan laksa inauthentic? It's traditionally made with a whole lot of seafood, so its lack surely makes it as inauthentic as making it without coconut milk. On the other hand, that's why mock meat was created in the first place, so you can't really call any Chinese dish made with mock meat inauthentic - it was done for religious reasons centuries ago.

The idea of defining "authentic" food is further problematised by the idea of authenticity. I was recently accused of not being Chinese, due to my birthplace not being located in the PRC. Although I am not a food, nor a style of cooking, I feel this example highlights how problematic it is to arbitrarily draw lines, and the ways in which some people look to impose an authority on a situation (or perhaps define themselves) by their knowledge of authentic versus inauthentic.




(47 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]reaps
2009-01-07 12:31 pm UTC (link)
what if i think chinese food is a definate advantage of multiculturalisms and like mosques because they are generally architecturally quite appealing

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-07 12:46 pm UTC (link)
people should subscribe to your magazine

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[info]stephbg
2009-01-07 01:00 pm UTC (link)
I was recently and vaguely thinking about doing a DIY meme: in what languages do I know at least one word? The important caveat: food-related words do not count because they're too common across cultures.

I confess I struggle with the politics of food as racism. Yes, there are "The Chinese will eat anything (lock up your pets)" jokes, but have you taken a look at French peasant cooking? Or anything that involves mould and offal i.e. everybody.

I'm not being clear at all here. Yes, bright pink sweet and sour pork is a danger sign for anyone with a pulse, but I don't perceive the danger in modifying one's national cuisine (French or otherwise) to aid its introduction into another culture. I'm sure that over time the authentic options become available and people can be weaned onto it.

Argh. You hurt my brain, in a good way.

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[info]purrdence
2009-01-07 01:12 pm UTC (link)
Yes, there are "The Chinese will eat anything (lock up your pets)" jokes

I get that statement every single time I have a new class for Japanese. The kid in question usually won't accept that Japan and China are not one and the same thing. *facepalms*

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[info]stephbg
2009-01-07 01:23 pm UTC (link)
Oh. That *is* a problem. Still, at least you're there to smash the information into their tiny brains educate.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 01:09 am UTC (link)
your DIY meme would be interesting! you should give it a go.

The politics of food as racism is - well. I don't eat meat, but I have thought nothing in my life of the stuff my family, friends, etc, have eaten, fish eyes and chicken feet and monkey brains and whatever. The jokes about Chinese people eating anything are because what is the difference between eating a horse and eating a cow?

Here is something I have had to hear several times in my life:

Person: "Chinese people pretend to be so great, they love the panda but then they go and eat dogs!"

Nobody says that sort of thing about the French. Maybe the people saying it don't realise it's racist, but it comes from these learnt habits and prejudices (that there is "right" food and "wrong" food, and this can be extended to "right" cultures and "wrong" cultures, and so on).

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[info]gyges_ring
2009-01-08 01:20 am UTC (link)
Really? I see people make fun of French people for their food all the time. With their snails, and their frogs' legs, and their smelly cheeses, and their strange wines, and the crazy levels of cream, and butter and pure unhealth, and etc. etc. ad nauseum. Those sorts of "the French think they're so great but..." discussions.

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[info]purrdence
2009-01-08 01:56 am UTC (link)
Do swear words and insults count?

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[info]stephbg
2009-01-08 10:08 am UTC (link)
of course

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[info]lizbyrd
2009-01-07 01:12 pm UTC (link)
At a restaurant the other day I ordered a penne dish that contained the usual assortment of vegetables in the sauce (tomato, capsicum, onion), plus pumpkin, which was a little odd but acceptable, plus bok choy. The bok choy was actually quite a tasty addition, but I had to get over my surprise first.

/random

I am not good at philosophical discussion.

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[info]vegetus
2009-01-08 12:43 am UTC (link)
Simon makes a great pasta sauce that has bok choy in it... it took me awhile to get used to it as well.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 01:21 am UTC (link)
I get very intimidated by philosophical discussion! I tend to write and rewrite these sorts of posts before I post them, and then have to spend a very long time pondering peoples' answers.

Mmm, pasta.

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[info]mpfl
2009-01-07 02:07 pm UTC (link)
People have the oddest notions about German food, as well. They think it's just sausages, potatoes and sauerkraut.

Go to any self-respecting "German" restaurant in Germany and you might have problems finding them on the menu.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 01:43 am UTC (link)
I suspect that people have these odd notions about all cuisines that aren't their own. It could be a lack of understanding of the unfamiliar (or even a lack of caring).

Everybody loves potatoes, though! :o)

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[info]mpfl
2009-01-08 01:45 am UTC (link)
I don't like boiled or mashed potatoes.

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[info]nixwilliams
2009-01-13 01:05 pm UTC (link)
me neither.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-13 01:06 pm UTC (link)
BUT POTATOES AND GRAVY

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[info]nixwilliams
2009-01-13 02:43 pm UTC (link)
ROAST potatoes and gravy! CHIPS and gravy! WEDGES and gravy! POTATO CAKES and gravy! SCALLOPED potatoes and . . . actually, maybe not. but i'm not a fan of boiled potatoes and i REALLY DON'T LIKE mashed potatoes (in a definite, CAPSLOCK kind of way!).

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[info]anxiolytic
2009-01-07 02:31 pm UTC (link)
I don't think the people that would go to a dragon dance are the same people that would oppose a mosque being built in their neighbourhood.

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[info]ataxi
2009-01-07 05:43 pm UTC (link)
I was about to say the same thing.

"Dr S briefly suggests that some people might argue that we should try to only eat representative or "authentic" food, but such an argument is inherently problematic."

Diet is a product of circumstance. Wouldn't it be inauthentic to go to a significant additional effort -- one which would never have been made by the originators of a recipe -- to get the "correct" ingredients or use the "proper" cooking methods?

Any Asian dish I cook is from a recipe book (bowdlerised, modified, etc.), cooked using highly inauthentic and ahistorical equipment, and will usually have at least one ingredient substitution because I couldn't be bothered obtaining something difficult.

"Yet I would not suggest that the Chinese-Malaysian style is any more or less valid than Sicilian"

Silicy would have had its own share of countervailing culinary influences during its long history of being conquered, oppressed, reconquered, reoppressed, by all kinds of weirdos (including, at one point, a Norman pirate king).

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 02:12 am UTC (link)
Diet is a product of circumstance. Wouldn't it be inauthentic to go to a significant additional effort -- one which would never have been made by the originators of a recipe -- to get the "correct" ingredients or use the "proper" cooking methods?

Diet is more than a product of circumstance, unless you want to consider circumstance as including "the ability of middle-class people in australia to eat whatever the hell they want," which, I guess you could.

How do you define what significant additional effort counts as one which would not have been made by the originators of the recipe? If it's for the "correct" ingredients then doesn't that imply that there would have been no difficulty in procuring them?

Silicy would have had its own share of countervailing culinary influences during its long history of being conquered, oppressed, reconquered, reoppressed, by all kinds of weirdos (including, at one point, a Norman pirate king).

But does that make its cuisine any less valid? Is there any cuisine that has remained more or less the same for the last however many centuries, with no modification or development from encroaching cuisines/cultures?

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 01:44 am UTC (link)
I disagree, based on anecdotes in research (I read a lot of the sorts of reports I linked to above), but I don't have any statistics to back me up.

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[info]ataxi
2009-01-08 03:01 am UTC (link)
I'd go and watch a CNY lion dance (in fact, I did that in Sydney a couple of years ago, in that big Chinatown down near the Dixon (?) St Mall) but I'd never lobby a council not to approve a mosque, or however that process occurs. Must be a lot of people in the same category.

What nettled me about that particular moment in your post, though, was the tone that implied that any interest in a Chinese New Year celebration by a typical Australian was motivated by a desire to "show off how accepting" they were. Rather closes the door on, you know, any interest taken in any unfamiliar culture whatsoever if it has to be classified so negatively. However, knowing you I know you didn't really mean it in that absolute sense.

I think many Australians get as far as food and no further in understanding cultures-other-than-bogstandard-Australian simply because it's an easy and satisfying first step, and for no more sinister reason.

Now, as far as "the ability of middle class Australians to eat whatever the hell they want" goes (which, by the way, is a somewhat peculiarly Australian privilege far from available to the middle classes of many other developed nations, according to my recent experience), if a recipe I want to cook calls for (say) baby Thai eggplants for maximum "authenticity", then I have no idea where I can get them. There might be a host of "oriental supermarkets" in my new immediate neighbourhood (which I'm going to love having nearby) but the two I checked the other day weren't carrying baby eggplants.

Regardless of the scarcity of such plants for the Thai people who first cooked the recipe, I'm quite sure they knew more or less when, how and with what frequency they would be available, and used them for special occasions or on a regular basis as that availability dictated. That's what I mean by "additional effort", I guess: if I want to be "authentic" in my Thai cooking I have to go a lot further from the path of least resistance, and into areas of ignorance to get there, than those originators would have. In doing so I get myself a long way from where they would have been psychologically preparing the dish: to me it's non-traditional, difficult to get ingredients for, and exotic. Certainly not "how momma made it". So what, to me, is "authentic Thai" but a rather "inauthentic" experience from the point of view of someone for whom it is a norm?

I certainly don't think Sicilian* cuisine is invalid ... the whole idea is ridiculous. I'd like to get all Johnsonian, cram down a plate of it and announce "I refute it thus!" I love food, I love mixed cuisine, and I rejoice in the fluidity of cooking's forms. Like sport, food is a great way to break down cultural barriers.
What I mean by "diet is a product of circumstance": that when I cook, I use the available ingredients, go to the efforts dictated by my inclinations and the occasion, make do with what I have and enhance according to any other possibilities. Aesthetic authenticity, or trying to recreate the exact flavours of some dish peculiar to some region, is something that certainly isn't consistent even from excellent restaurant to excellent restaurant. Max and I used to rate the massamun beef at the Thai restaurants we went to as a matter of course, and the variation in flavours was dramatic even between two very tasty instances of the dish. I have no idea which of them would be regarded as the most "authentic" but I doubt the chefs were thinking too hard about it.

* can't believe I typed "Silicy" in the above.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-11 04:31 am UTC (link)
What nettled me about that particular moment in your post, though, was the tone that implied that any interest in a Chinese New Year celebration by a typical Australian was motivated by a desire to "show off how accepting" they were. Rather closes the door on, you know, any interest taken in any unfamiliar culture whatsoever if it has to be classified so negatively. However, knowing you I know you didn't really mean it in that absolute sense.

Thanks. :o) I didn't mean it in an absolute sense, just in a more general sense. I can say that most people I know are interested in an unfamiliar cultural experience (though I have known people who were interested in it for "woo I'm awesome" reasons more than anything else).

I think many Australians get as far as food and no further in understanding cultures-other-than-bogstandard-Australian simply because it's an easy and satisfying first step, and for no more sinister reason.

Isn't this in itself somewhat sinister? I mean, doesn't it imply that sometimes (not always) those Australians getting no further than food think that's all they need to do to understand these cultures?

(which, by the way, is a somewhat peculiarly Australian privilege far from available to the middle classes of many other developed nations, according to my recent experience)

(I agree with your statement)

(also I'm pretty sure you won't find baby eggplants at any of the supermarkets near your house, though the crazy grocer on William St might carry some)

Your example is well taken, however. Although it is significantly easier to procure some things, the difficulty in obtaining them does alter the experience of cooking. But then, is the experience of "authentic" cooking as important as the experience of "authentic" eating? And it is of course just as likely to change - as an example, I would consider an "authentic" eating experience in any house of the Chinese diaspora to now include a rice cooker, rather deviating from original rice preparation but now ubiquitous, at least in Aus and South-East Asia.

I love the fluidity in cooking, and in the end product, but I still rank it in my head next to the "authenticity" of my own experiences.

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the unexamined dish
[info]ataxi
2009-01-11 06:28 am UTC (link)
Yeah, it is somewhat sinister I agree. But then, the level to which people believe they need to educate themselves about anything in order to begin making pronouncements or consider themselves an expert is frighteningly low. Here I'm often guilty. For example I can read half a dozen newspaper articles regarding the current situation in Gaza and consider myself informed enough to offer my view.

Perhaps a more useful definition of authenticity in cooking wouldn't refer to the methods, or the ingredients, or the overall Merchant&Ivory-esque historical accuracy of your period kitchen, but simply to the degree of concomitant cultural appreciation. Cooking's version of Socrates: "the unexamined dish is not worth eating."

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[info]cavalaxis
2009-01-07 04:06 pm UTC (link)
The strange thing about food is that it is so deeply personal, and can be seen as another source of "identity".

I've lived on the West Coast for most of my life and to me, American food is bbq ribs and pulled pork sandwiches and a refreshing bottle of beer. In addition to that, the food of *my* life is sushi and udon and mochi with hot sake, it's egg flower soup and wor wonton and bao with plum wine, it's coq au vin and a bottle of burgundy, it's latkes and matzoh ball soup, it's cold borscht and vodka, it's tamales and enchiladas and tacos (the traditional kind with a soft tortilla shell, preferably with shredded beef or pork) and salt/lime/tequila shots, it's jujeh kebab (Persian game hen) and musteh khiar (yoghurt with dill and cucumber) and hummus with tea or doogh, it's loco moco (burger patty with fried eggs covered in gravy over rice), it's pasta pasta pasta with marinara or al fredo sauce and a nice bottle of chianti grappa.

My food identity as a Californian is world cuisine. I am SO lucky to have this incredible menu available to me any day of the week. And I want to go see the dragons dance because they're freakin' COOL looking.

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[info]cakeface
2009-01-07 05:38 pm UTC (link)
Of course, there's always the true test of regional American identity via food:

1) What do you put on your biscuits?
2) Do you know what collard greens are?
3) Do you, on a regular basis, eat beans other than refried and green/string? As you live in California, add soy in as an obvious too.
4) You have hit something in the road. Assuming it is not human, is it also dinner?
5) Was the corn you had for dinner last night grown within 10 miles of where you live?

For me the answers are:

1) Melted butter and honey.
2) Vaguely? Not in actuality.
3) No, unfortunately.
4) OH GOD NO.
5) Yeah, not really.

Which identifies me as a rather urban West Coaster, pretty much. :)

Edited at 2009-01-07 05:39 pm UTC

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[info]cavalaxis
2009-01-07 05:50 pm UTC (link)
See, I find #4 to be an offensive question (I'm sure you didn't mean it that way and I am decidely NOT taking offense), because it stereotypes a certain segment of rural Americans living at or below the poverty line. I have family that would absolutely butcher a deer that they'd hit with the car, a) because they hunt for subsistence and b) it would be a horrible waste not to. I have friends and family that live in areas where large game road kill is donated to homeless shelters for that same reason.

That said...

1) Honey and butter, and gravy sometimes for b'fast, but only white gravy and only fresh made. Never from a can.
2) I do. I've even eaten them and liked them. Esp. with bacon fat. (I grew up in Texas).
3) We have a pot of black-eyed peas still in the fridge, leftovers from New Year's Day traditional meal. We eat pinto beans & kidney beans in chili, we eat navy beans and white beans in soup, we eat edamame in gosh - whatever we can put it in. Edamame is GOOD. And we had more pole beans than we knew what to do with this summer. The garden is getting TWO bean plants TOPS this year.
4)I have never eaten roadkill, but I know people who have and agree with their reasoning.
5) Well, the corn we had for dinner in September I bought from the farmer who grew it. There's a farmer's market near you and I swear, you'll never go back to store bought again.

What this says about my cultural identity? I come from a rural American background and I still eat with rural tendencies, even though I'm largely an urban West Coaster.

The distinction of urban and rural is a good one to make. Thank you for that.

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[info]cakeface
2009-01-07 06:09 pm UTC (link)
Well, having been in a car when this question was asked, it's also true for a large part of (even relatively well-to-do) rural Americans. I understand it can be seen as offensive, but the only reasons I have ever encountered for it are the ones you gave, and the animal we hit was not only mourned but yes, donated. That does not mean, however, that to my palate it is at all appetizing, and in fact taking roadkill home in my area is grounds for police investigation. Thusly, as a regional identifier? It's a pretty strong one.

I am jealous of your bean diversification. Still trying to get in on that. Urban Washingtonians are not huge fans of beans, on the whole. Also, try growing corn west of the Cascades! I have. It doesn't work. :( East, though, Washington TOTALLY RULES for crops. People always hit on the east of our state, but dammit, they feed us!

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[info]cavalaxis
2009-01-07 06:16 pm UTC (link)
It is a very strong regional identifier. As for the grounds for police investigation? What can I say. I married into the Hatfield clan.

I like beans because they're cheap and they store well in dry form. And so versatile! (Also, I'm not the cook in the family. My husband does all the cooking. I just get to make suggestions and eat the results. ~is spoiled~)

You could always grow Hops. ~mischievous eyebrow waggle~ Then you could barter beer for corn. :D

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 02:55 am UTC (link)
The strange thing about food is that it is so deeply personal, and can be seen as another source of "identity".

Part of the issue of/contention of food politics is because of this. I come up against this a lot especially in regards to veg*ism, this very rigid idea that you have to eat meat. Whilst a lot of people wouldn't couch it in terms of identity, it often is. In one of the links there's this idea that meat is manly and rice leads to you being all weak and fading away, how is that not identity issues?

And the attachment to food is something I've talked about on my food blog, this idea that my mum said, how can you be Chinese if you don't eat meat? not because not eating meat is un-Chinese, but because meat is just as vital as every other ingredient, every carrot and mushroom and soy sauce. So it was sort of a how can I id as Chinese if my food changed? And it has been important to me, that's why I spend so much time altering the food upon which I have grown up, because it's really important to my sense of identity that I get to keep eating this food.

The lions and dragons dancing are the best. I love them.

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[info]cavalaxis
2009-01-08 03:32 pm UTC (link)
Yes, this! The Wolf and I kept talking about this on the drive home last night. We came to some interesting conclusions, especially about how the corporate culture has robbed us of another segment of our identity by homogenizing our food. Denny's, Starbucks, Chili's, TGIFriday's, Outback Steakhouse (there's a laugh for you), Olive Garden , all of these corporate restaurants have disallowed any variation that might be regional (at least in the US). And at the same time, they've given us food service expectations (in and out in half an hour) that small mom & pop restaurants can't begin to compete with. The rush rush rush of our modern life doesn't allow us the time to sit and drink a cup of coffee and read the paper while someone actually COOKS us a meal (as opposed to having it warmed up from the freezer).

Anyway, thanks for the food for thought. Really fantastic discussion. :D

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-11 04:20 am UTC (link)
I have heard of the horrors of the Outback Steakhouse (which, right there of course, is an example of inauthenticity, and certainly when my friends came home from the USA they told us all about their dining experience at the Outback Steakhouse, and we all had a good laugh, but does that actually make it inauthentic in the situation?). :o)

No worries, I love talking about food and culture and etc.

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[info]cakeface
2009-01-07 05:30 pm UTC (link)
Um, as far as this Caucasian-American thinks, eating Chinese food is evidence that Chinese food is generally amazing.

Speaking of laksa, weirdly, I opened this in a tab just before I opened your post. o_O

Edited at 2009-01-07 05:38 pm UTC

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 02:59 am UTC (link)
IT BASICALLY IS AMAZING



LAAAKSA OH MY LOVE

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[info]sainfoin_fields
2009-01-07 07:41 pm UTC (link)
While the point that Americans think there is no American cuisine is well-taken, the statement that white Americans think eating Chinese food (particularly stuff like General Tso's chicken or chop suey, neither of which have I ever eaten) makes them "worldly" is very very far from my white, American, capital-of-Chinese-America consumer-of-pop-culture experience. It's pretty much the epitome of commodofied food (think the folding white takeout boxes), not so much exotic foreign cuisine.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 03:07 am UTC (link)
Does it being the epitome of commodified food negate it from being exotic foreign cuisine?

Do you feel, as someone who is at least from the same continent as these original accusations of Chinese food as American food, that others have had a different experience from yours and so consider these twists in cuisine to be authentic Chinese food?

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[info]sainfoin_fields
2009-01-08 06:15 am UTC (link)
Mm, no? I'd say my Chinese food consumption has been pretty unremarkable, and although the Bay Area has a disproportionate fraction of America's Asian population, I don't think my experience with Chinese food really reflects that. But I do think the commodification of Chinese food de-exoticizes it to a large extent; people don't say, "let's eat something unusual - I know, Chinese!" Chinese is considered convenient, perfect for takeout and sharing, perhaps second only in the non-burger-category to pizza. When I see people treating food as though it is exotic and special, it's usually Japanese or Indian; Chinese (such as it is interpreted in America) is simply too common to call exotic.

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[info]David Adam <zanchey> [typekey.com]
2009-01-07 08:31 pm UTC (link)
Searching for "authenticity" in food is a pretty White Person habit, according to stuffwhitepeoplelike!

(digression 1: the term White People as defined by above website is problematical for me because many of the people I know who fit the stereotype do not have white skin. Also I always get confused which way round "banana" and "egg" are)

(digression 2: I used to hate it when my Lit teacher said "problematical". Problematic is a shorter and equally good word! But now I find myself using it all the time. odd.)

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-08 05:16 am UTC (link)
The term 'White People' is pretty problematic (that's actually why I often use Anglo, but that doesn't lend the authority to assign a country for that category 'Anglo').

Do the people you know who fit the stereotype whilst not having white skin come from privileged racial backgrounds? I think that's the big thing about the stereotype, that they have these reactions/thoughts/whatever and that stems from the privilege of white skin. So if they fit the stereotype for different reasons doesn't that mean they're unlikely to actually fit the stereotype...?

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[info]cardamon7
2009-01-09 04:55 pm UTC (link)
that's actually why I often use Anglo, but that doesn't lend the authority to assign a country for that category 'Anglo'

I'm not sure entirely what you mean here.

Two questions:

Firstly, is the notion of country different from the notion of culture to such a degreee that one would need to ascribe it?

Secondly, is the cultural identity of Anglophonia (which consists of people who, more often than not, would never use such a word to describe themselves) insufficient to serve as a pseudo-country?

EDIT: I endevoured to write something on the subject of my usage, but it's lead to my being forced to reconsider said usage at a basic level; primarily I use anglo when I'm frustrated and objectionable.

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-11 04:17 am UTC (link)
is the notion of country different from the notion of culture to such a degreee that one would need to ascribe it?

yes.

is the cultural identity of Anglophonia (which consists of people who, more often than not, would never use such a word to describe themselves) insufficient to serve as a pseudo-country?

I'm not really sure what you're asking here.

In discussions of race, I unfortunately have to police my own language very very carefully, because people (who are hiding behind their privilege/don't want to confront these notions/etc) often derail the conversation through attacking the language used. 'I'm not white,' gets used a lot (because they're pink, get it? or because white is not a culture or whatever), as does 'white people have been discriminated against too,' which is a point when you consider, for example, the history of people such as the Greek within Australia, however is usually used as a weapon to derail in order to no longer discuss the race issue at hand, or to dismiss it. 'Anglo' is therefore a term I personally preference in discussions of white racial privilege in predominately white countries, specifically to reference people from an Anglo-Saxon background.

The second part of this is that, is the cultural identity of Anglophonia (which consists of people who, more often than not, would never use such a word to describe themselves), Anglophone people (for lack of a better term in this context) often in these conversations refuse to define themselves as such, even though it sort of informs the history of our current racially privileged situation, as it were. Which is sometimes the point of it all.

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Came to me on the plane
[info]David Adam <zanchey> [typekey.com]
2009-01-12 04:23 pm UTC (link)
After struggling with the name "stuffpeoplefromprivilegedracialbackgroundslike" (spfprbl?), I realised that the answer came from (who else?) TISM and that I was an idiot for not realising it earlier.

/me goes to register stuffwankerslike.com

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[info]krisjohn
2009-01-07 11:09 pm UTC (link)
This white person (1st generation Australian from English parents) doesn't care what the cultural heritage of his food is, so long as it tastes nice and doesn't cause an allergy attack.

Much like the English language steals from other languages and proceeds to mangle words beyond recognition, I'm happy to appropriate and remix food, ingredients and/or cooking styles in any way that tastes good -- and just as happy for others to do the same. When I go to a restaurant I'm not thinking "Gosh, I'm eating Nepalese food, aren't I gastronomically well-traveled", I'm thinking "Yum, I'll come back here".

Frankly, I care more whether a restaurant has a coupon in the Entertainment Book, than the style of food it claims to serve. ;)

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-11 04:18 am UTC (link)
Which is perfectly cool, though I find the Entertainment Book cannot be reliably trusted to provide a good restaurant for dinner.

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[info]delux_vivens
2009-01-14 01:51 am UTC (link)
*waves*

*had chinese food for dinner last night*

*ponders*

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[info]stephiepenguin
2009-01-14 02:15 am UTC (link)
*waves*

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